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Get in where you fit in.

I was out enjoying the local snowmobile trails yesterday and came across a man walking his two dogs; a man with his child and dog walking; a man, child and two dogs XC skiing (not the dogs); a woman walking; and a man riding his mountain bike.

These are all great outdoor recreational activities to enjoy and I am not mad that they are participating, I am mad that they were all on the state snowmobile trail. If I were to ride down a ski trail, or the Lakewalk, or a regular sidewalk for that matter, people would be calling the police and hopping up and down in anger. So why is it OK to break the rules the other way?

My snowmobile will kill you, your children and your dog!

It is not safe and you really should refrain from being out there. I am trying to avoid the next tragedy in the area by sending out this warning. The speed limit on the trail is 50 m.p.h. That is basically the same as the highway. Do you walk your dog and kids in the highway? No, of course you would not. So why is it OK on a trail designated for motorized vehicles?

Fifty percent of the people I encountered turned to face me and move over off the trail, that means the other half did not even turn around or contain their dogs. If I have to swerve abruptly or slam on the brakes, I increase the chances of one of us becoming injured. Have you ever been charged by a dog while on a moving vehicle? It is difficult to judge where they are going.

So please stick to walking trails for walking, ski trails for skiing, and I’ll stay on the snowmobile trail with my 500-pound vehicle. Happy winter!

48 Comments

ruby2sd4y

about 9 years ago

Perhaps you should contact local media with this same info - an email suggestion goes a long way - and they can report it as a PSA (just as they do about lake ice or plow safety) reminder and reach so many more all across the Northland where these trails are located. 

This is a good venue, but only goes so far, as many I've encountered have never heard about PDD or are prejudiced against it, not to mention those who don't use/read websites, or have access to the internet.

Lisa

about 9 years ago

I often use the trails near my house, some of which intersect with state snowmobile trials. I do stay off the trails as much as possible and move off the trail if a snowmobile comes by. As a xc skiier, I have contemplated this same question. We get mad if people walk on the groomed ski trails, shouldn't I respect the snowmobile trails? Most ski trails have signs that say they are not to be used for hiking trails and dogs, but I have never seen signs like that for the snowmobile trails. I realize it should be "common sense" but we all know how well that usually goes.

The problem for me is the trails that are not specifically marked for snowmobilers, I consider them multi-use. The area I am talking about is widely used by people like you are describing - dog walkers, skiers, bikers, snowshoers and snowmobilers. 

I guess the best we can do is politely ask that people who shouldn't be on the trail - snowmobile or ski- to not use the trail, and do our best to avoid accidents.

hunter

about 9 years ago

I cry when snowmobiles go on cc skiing trails..... I believe it is a valid point that snowmobiles should be the only ones,on the snow machine trails. Seven bridges road has a sign that says no cc skiing in angry letters by what I assume is a snowmobile trail ..... might of had a  bad skier ... snowmpbile accident there in the past. I know a snowmobiler can be fined and snowmobile can be took by the dnr possibly if the snowmobiler disturbs the habitat. So I guess people should be better regulated on snow machine trails because its a lot of liability and human life at risk .

Paul Lundgren

about 9 years ago

B-man, I take your point to heart, but keep in mind that walkers on other trails, or showshoers who are off-trail, will still cross snowmobile trails -- and there are a lot of deer out there and fallen trees, so you're never really going to be safe at 50 m.p.h. But reducing the obstacles does help your chances. 

Lisa makes a good point that snowmobile trails seldom (if ever? I can't recall seeing any) have signs telling walkers to scram.

Resolut

about 9 years ago

I use snowmobile trails on foot/snowshoes/xc skis to access other trails or areas.  I have never felt like I was breaking the rules, but typically try to get onto non-motorized trails as soon as possible for safety & solitude. 

I suppose I never felt in danger skiing a state trail because you can hear a snowmobile a long way off (fortunately & unfortunately) and have time to leash the dog and move to the side of the trail.

People walk the State Trails in the summer and it makes sense that some would walk them year round.

Sounds like 50 mph is way too fast for such a busy trail.

Shane

about 9 years ago

I often run on the closed section of skyline parkway / seven bridges road in the winter time. In the winter it is a snowmobile trail.
It is a closed road and two or three time wider than a regular snowmobile trail. Snowmobiles are loud and when I hear one coming I move to the edge of the road.

I don't see snowmobiles very often, usually every 3rd or 4th run, if that.  I always see at least one deer. 

Given the minimal snowmobile traffic, I figure that it is safer than running on the side of a road with automobiles.

I do not go on any other snowmobile trails.

MJH

about 9 years ago

Man Swan, those snowmobilers like to drink. Crazy stuff.

Brian

about 9 years ago

Minnesota would be worthless without some/any form of recreation in the winters. I myself am a snowmobiler (as well as hiker/snowboarder/snowshoe etc). 50 mph is the state issued speed limit unless otherwise noted and I can tell you that 50 mph is not very fast, especially on todays technology. I'm also a member of a snowmobile club where i participate in trail clean up and maintenance. The snowmobile trails are most likely better maintained than any XC or hiking trail anywhere and thats because we pay for it. Our license and membership fees keep the groomers running to ensure safe and clean trails that are properly marked. If a trail is not marked well its the snowmobilers responsibility to use caution. Personally, the XC skiers I see are great and move off to the side if they are not already skiing there. My problem is typical people on horse riding down the middle of the trail. Please, if you are a horse owner will you stay off the MN and WI snowmobile trails, its dangerous for both of us.

Dave Sorensen

about 9 years ago

Does anyone know what the law is re: mixed-use on snowmobile trails? Is it illegal to walk on them in the winter? Of course it's important to be courteous and cautious, but what is the law?

Gail

about 9 years ago

While skiing at Lester Park last winter, I crossed paths with a snowmobile on the xc ski trail.

Lojasmo

about 9 years ago

State snowmobile trails are multiple-use.  Hikers are allowed, and as snowmobiles are motorized, hikers and skiiers have the right of way.

DNR: Find a state trail

Now quit your crying.

aaaa

about 9 years ago

6100.3400 TRAIL USES.
Subpart 1.
In general.

Subject to the limitations imposed by these parts and other duly enacted statutes, rules, and ordinances, or unless specifically prohibited by the commissioner, trails may be used for snowmobiling and all nonmotorized forms of recreation, including but not limited to hiking, bicycling, horseback riding, snowshoeing, cross-country skiing, camping, and picnicking.

bluenewt

about 9 years ago

There are two places where snowmobile trails connect to Lester River Road that are marked "no cross country skiing." But you can cross country ski on the closed portion of the road. At least, there's no sign saying not to, and lots of people do. There's plenty of room for skiers and snowmobilers. Most of the snowmobilers I see there seem to understand that the road is heavily used by walkers, runners and skiers, and they keep the speed reasonable. 

There are terrific hiking/biking trails that run off Seven Bridges Road and back into the woods. There's no reason to hike on the designated snowmobile or ski trails. 

Whatever the rules may be for snowmobile trails, it's not legal to hike on ski trails. It wrecks the grooming when folks punch footprints into it. It doesn't seem like it would, but it really messes up the skiing.

zra

about 9 years ago

You can, however, xc ski on snowshoe trails, sort of. Gotta run three or four guys on a shoe trail after a good snow to pack it down, but it's totally doable.

B-man

about 9 years ago

Sharing trails with people is a good idea, I'm just concerned by a lack of perceived awareness, and dogs.  I did encounter some who would turn toward me and move off to the side of a narrow trail.  Hawk Ridge/ Lester River area is plenty wide and busy, I can always count on seeing others there, but out in the boonies with dogs that are running free it gets a little hairy.  I am just worried I may hurt someone while we are both out enjoying the woods.  BTW horses are worse than loose dogs, cause they can spook and jump around all over the trail, even if the operator had "parked" them off the trail before the arrival of the snowmobile.

See you out there.

samh

about 9 years ago

If there weren't any more snowmobiles this wouldn't be a problem.  The woods would be a lot quieter too.  

But I'm being unrealistic, so whatever mode of transport you take, be aware of your surroundings and remember to share the trail.  MN has an amazing state trail system and if it weren't for snowmobilers it wouldn't be there. 

Fact: Minnesota has 18,941 miles of designated snowmobile trails.

digit3

about 9 years ago

Given the vast amount of snowmobile trails within easy reach of town, I'd sure like to see folks take their smog belching machines out of the city limits which would eliminate the need for this discussion.

I walk the trails all over this town with and without dogs. However, if a trail is used by snowmobiles and is posted No Cross Country Skiing then why poach it? It is not like snowmobile trails provide great terrain for freestyle skiing with all of the ruts. I have never seen a sign that states Motorized Traffic Only and until I do I will keep walking and running on them and will use caution when I hear a machine coming. 

Stupid question: Why do snowmobile trails need to be groomed so well (or at all)? They seem to have pretty capable suspension and ungroomed trails might be a natural way to keep speed contained.

B-man

about 9 years ago

@digit3-
groomers are needed to make the trail flat and smooth.  Without grooming the trail turns into a path of moguls spaced about 2-3 feet apart, which feels like driving down some of our cities finest streets.  Not sure what forces are acting on the snow to make it get so choppy but anyone who snowmobiles has seen this.

I never stated the use of the trails by non motorized parties was illegal, just to be cautious while you are out there. I know non motorized people have the right of way, but in reality the larger weight and higher speed will "take" the right of way from a light and stationary obstacle.

@Lojasmo
I am trying to avoid the crying that will happen when someone or someone's dog/child is injured in a collision by having a discussion about safety. 

To anyone who wishes that snowmobiles would "go away" you have a great self-centric universe, so...good luck with that.

Jess

about 9 years ago

Even if the state statutes allow for the snowmobile trails to be multi-use, that doesn't mean that dogs should be off-leash. 

The City of Duluth has a leash ordinance and sadly, it's not being followed. When I bike trails and even streets, I get charged (nice dog or not) by dogs. I can show you the hole in my sleeve where one dog decided to "play" with me by biting my shirt sleeve. 

Dogs deserve fun and exercise too. But when they are off leash and unpredictable, it is unsafe for everyone. Get a retractable leash if you want your dog to have some roaming room. But keep them off the groomed ski trails and away from moving vehicles (motorized and not).

Frank

about 9 years ago

When I ran dogsled tours in the Tetons, I was breaking trails with brand new sleds day in and day out, but beeling still got boring fast, even at 70mph in the most beautiful place on the planet.  Letting my thumb do all the work only ever got so good. It was just a tool. Using the thing for fun still seems weird. OK, they're mildly entertaining, but going downhill on skis with the prospect of crashing and the element of danger is a lot better! Even more exciting than the prospect of running over a horse.

So with all the miles of beel trails in town, WHY do they still have to make them intersect all [email protected] over the Lester ski trails? I'd sure like to ski elsewhere, just outside Lester, in the many thousands of miles of snowmobile trails around town, why not just ban skiing all together and designate Duluth a motocross town? We can ban pedestrians all together too. If you're not using some sort of a gas burning groin enhancing engine, you should be keel hauled. I'm out skiing through nice clouds of gas filled air, and I have to break for sleds on a downhill,  then I'm supposed to wave back? 

  Get out and use your body the way God intended. Or at least pull someone on skis with a tow rope, or save an injured baby or something. Ten miles to the gallon for a sled isn't all that hot.
The sense of entitlement many SnowMcbeelers have seems a little sad sack to me, but I guess heart disease will take care of that soon enough.

It's like Ron James says of Sara Palin, 'You cross that bad bitch on a Sunday, they'll find your balls in a pile of wolf scat on the tundra."
Snowmobiling hasn't helped her husband one bit.  In fact I think its hurt, because that's how he defines himself now, whereas she's going to be our next president, and only uses snowmobiles during photo ops, think about it.

ivan907

about 9 years ago

I am a land owner who has snowmobile trails running through it.  I also snowshoe, ski, bike, run, walk with my dog off leash on the snowmobile trails around my house.  To the snowmobiles who use and access these trails feel privileged that we, land owners, have given permission and continue to do so without any reserve.  It all comes down to respect each other, have fun, be safe, use common sense and good judgement.

bluenewt

about 9 years ago

I meant Seven Bridges Road, not Lester River Road.

hunter

about 9 years ago

Frank, if you don't like Lester there are a lot of trails that don't intersect  with snow machine trails.

Ruthie

about 9 years ago

I get what you are saying but when you are riding your snowmobile in the city limits, on or off trail, one would assume you drive slower and more cautiously than you would in an open rural area.

B-man

about 9 years ago

@Frank
You are leaning a bit towards the self centric attitude which I commented on earlier. i.e. "if I don't like it there is no value to it."

Whether you like to snowmobile or not is your personal opinion, good for you for discovering yourself.  The topic of this post is safety and multiple users on a single trail.  Perhaps you can start another topic in the "why you should only like what I like" section of PDD.

Happy trolling.

eco eco

about 9 years ago

All behavior is not equal in its effects. Snowmobiling seems a pretty irresponsible waste of resources. But hey, that's what makes it a great American activity! Screw responsibility, I wanna have fun!

Nick

about 9 years ago

My snowmobile will kill you, your children and your dog! It is not safe and you really should refrain from being out there.
That sounds kinda self-centered to me, if you are referring to multi-use trails.

B-man

about 9 years ago

@ nick "My snowmobile will kill you, your children and your dog" is the outcome I am trying to avoid, and "It is not safe and you really should refrain from being out there." is a solution to that problem.

The language of the second part may be too strong-- change "refrain from being out there" to "please be careful and aware while you are out there, and please please please leash your animal"
  
I do ride sober, and under control, and I am aware there will be obstacles on the trail..my point is all about safety.  

@eco eco "Snowmobiling seems a pretty irresponsible waste of resources." seems that way to you, does not seem that way to me.

Back to the topic of this post ... enjoying the outdoors together without incident.

W.T.F

about 9 years ago

At one point Munger Shaw was specifically posted for no x-country skiing as is the blocked off section of Hawk Ridge, which is also a snowmobile trail. I am not sure if Munger Shaw is still posted that way but Hawk Ridge is. I don't snowmobile, I ski, but we need places for everyone to go. 

I will chime in on the dog thing; I like dogs fine but dog owners need to get over the idea that everyone thinks your dog is cute, everyone wants to play with your dog because you think he "just wants to play." 

Here is an actual quote from an incident I had this summer while riding my bike in the Hillside neighborhood. The lady lets her large dog run out the door not on a leash and then yells at me "you had better look out, my dog has a problem with bikers!!!" Then she proceeds to attempt to call the dog, who does not come because he is untrained and too busy trying to bite my leg. Do I need to say anything? 

Can all you dog owners see the insanity of that kind of attitude? Evidently it is my job to look out for your unleashed untrained dog or I guess it is my fault if I get bitten. Her dog has a problem with bikers but somehow it is my job to do something about that. One of the many reasons I have to leave my gun at home.

digit3

about 9 years ago

Good stuff Frank. However I will respectfully disagree about Palin being our next President. I think that you were huffing too many beel fumes at Lester! While I highly doubt that Obama will get re-elected, he certainly stands a fairer chance if he goes up against Palin. I don't think that the Reps would allow her to be their candidate.

Eve

about 9 years ago

There is a huge difference between a xcountry skier going on a snowmobile trail and a snowmobile on a xcountry ski trail!!  If someone chooses to go on a snowmobile trail, they are assuming the risk of getting hit by one.  If they are dumb enough to leave their dog off leash on one or not get out of the way when the snowmobile comes, it's their problem.  The snowmobile trails are for snowmobiles...I am not a use of them, do not like them in any way shape nor form, however, skiers do not do damage to the snowmobile trails at all.  The snowmobiles should have a speed limit to follow because some go way too fast all the time while others are very considerate of everyone and slow down when passing someone.  As far as the drinking comment...many of the designated snowmobile trails at least in Wisconsin such as on the bearskin go from bar to bar...there are signs pointing to each bar off of the trail.

Frank

about 9 years ago

Yah, well Digit, I was pretty sure Dick and Bush weren't going to be in charge either, twice, and it was shame on me the second time.  All I'm saying is, never misunderestimate your opponent. 

@ B-man, I wasn't trolling, just fooling a little, 'cept I really don't like the fumes, and I don't think Monoxide is all that safe, if by safe we mean continuing to live in an oxygenated planet that doesn't have major species die-off, as we now do.  Speaking of safety, why the hell would you want to go snowmcbeeling sober?  Alcohol and drugs are the primary reasons God gave us high powered machines.  Maybe you're the kind of guy whose reflexes actually improve with a little sauce.  You ever think of that?  I'd get a handle of Wild Turkey as soon as you can.

watergirl

about 9 years ago

I went to Lester Park last saturday to walk my dog because I'm tired of walking him on the icy sidewalks/streets of lakeside.  As I got out of my car in the parking lot, I noticed a familiar smell but couldn't put my finger on it. I grabbed my dog and headed through the park to walk the trail up Amity Creek. As I neared the park I figured out the smell- exhaust fumes from snowmobiles. There were about 4 or 5 men with about 6 children and 3 snowmobiles. They were doing laps in the park near the gazebo and the beginning of the ski trail (which some other kids were sledding down).  It seemed as if they were "getting ready" to go out on the trails. So I hurried myself and my dog out of the way up the hiking trail. I smell and noise were nauseating. I walked up the trail to the 1st bridge & back. Back at the park, they were still doing laps. What?!? With miles and miles of trails for snowmobilers, why are these people doing laps in the public park? I don't really care if this is legal or not because it was annoying.

B-man

about 9 years ago

Thanks to everyone who has posted in this topic, to those of you who are not supporters of snowmobiles due to the noise, smell or production of carbon monoxide, I have one question.

Do you not contribute to the problem you are telling me I am creating?

Snowshoeing, XC skiing, and hiking are all antique forms of conveyance that have been replaced through hundreds of thousands of hours of planning and production focused on the internal combustion engine. In other words, progress.  Our society is constantly focused on new and innovative things to increase productivity, decrease manual labor and bring products / services to market in a more efficient manner.  You do not like the carbon monoxide made by my snowmobile?  How 'bout the CO made by your car or the bus you take, or the truck that brings your fancy whole grain sustainable organic food to the Co-Op?  Or how about the energy you use to heat your house or to cook your food with?  Where did your clothes come from? Probably a factory that creates waste as a byproduct and then someone loaded into a truck/ ship/ train to get it to your geographical area.  It is easy to pick on an activity that you do not value but when it is used for your convenience you seem to turn a blind eye.  Now if you heat with sunlight, not solar panels cause they make lots of waste in their production, and only eat things you find naturally occurring in the world that are not transported any distance, and only wear clothes that are made from those naturally occurring products, and travel only under your own power all the time, then you can complain to me all day about how "I" am ruining the world with my snowmobile and you would not be the pot calling the kettle black.

Keep in mind people used to do these activities (snowshoeing, XC skiing, hiking, dog sledding) out of necessity, now you choose them as recreation, because you have a more convenient option to move yourselves and materials from place to place.  

For those of you who stayed on the topic thank you and have a great winter.

Resolut

about 9 years ago

Interesting comment, B-man.  

Recreation may be filling a void that used to be handled through those replaced "antique forms of conveyance."  Canoeing instead of motor boating or skiing instead of snowmobiling may allow us to reconnect to nature on a human scale. 

The winter forest is so beautifully serene and joyfully devoid of the noise of civilization. Travelling under your own power with the gentle swishing of skis underfoot can be a very cathartic escape. The roar of a snowmobile and the smell of its exhaust can jolt one out of this wilderness experience. We're then right back to breathing in our societies waste with our man-made noises drowning out those of the wild.

I also love to snowmobile.  One of my favorite aspects of MN is the extensive trail network, and I'd like to see the snowmobile options grow.  However, I think people are speaking more to the inherent conflict among recreational uses, and I hope they are not taking a holier-than-thou attitude about lifestyle choices.

ian

about 9 years ago

Know there is one dude who uses/used to use the Munger for transit on bicycle year-round, believe he has/had his bicycle registered as a snowmobile ;)

W.T.F

about 9 years ago

There also is one dude on the Munger Shaw who has put a gasoline engine on his road bike and seems to think it is okay to ride the bike trail because his motor is on a bike. Not okay and it stinks to high heaven. This is not to be confused with the mouthy punk who drives his mini bike on the Munger Shaw in the summer and swears at anyone who suggests he is in the wrong place.

hbh

about 9 years ago

I"m sorry, but there is a difference between using a gas-powered vehicle for *recreation* and for *commuting*. Especially when we're talking about something that spits out wayyy more stink than a car. (Yes, it does. Don't even try.) 

Personally, I look forward to the day when no one can afford to use snowmobiles except in an emergency. Recreational snowmobile use makes me sad for everyone (the people who imagine they're "getting out in nature" in one of them, and the animals I've watched try to dig themselves up into a field smashed icy-flat by them, and everyone else who has to listen to them whine for fifteen minutes before they shatter the entire forest with their noise).

Jim

about 9 years ago

B-man- see what happens when something as simple as a common sense warning is given- your crazy extremist lib wackos come flying out of the woodwork faster than a senator pulling up his drawers during a police raid. This is a perfect example of why our town is so messed up. These extremists think nothing of pushing their idea of idyllic life on others. It is SO messed up! God help you if you were to hit one. Imagine coming around a corner and one of these freaks doesn't have control of Fido, causing you to jump a bank and smack a tree. You'd probably get sued for emotional anguish. I could tell you of at least a dozen instances when these same tinderheads try and maneuver their bike around autos during inclimate weather. Just as hbh1 would like to get rid of sleds, I'd like to get rid of the crazy anti-everything-but-what-I like libs. Based on the last election, it looks like the majority of the population agrees...

PS_ I'm surprised no one has set up a thread on Social Security being bankrupt! What are these sops going to do for assistance when they are too old to work? Oh, I forgot, they have a dog. They can chow on some kibble...

Frank

about 9 years ago

I didn't think we were talking about the fact that making skis etc do contribute to the carbon footprint much like flatulence.  I think some folks are addressing  their concurrent nauseation they experience at places like Lester from Two Stroke Disease. So maybe it is a technology problem, or lack thereof that we all can't get along...  Wasn't the topic originally about everyone learning to coexist on the public trail system which in this town caters mightily to sleds?

  My response was only that I haven't yet learned to enjoy the Petroleum High.  But I'm trying.  Give me more time, and a few paper bags. Then if I get smeared by some jackass on a snow machine doing 105 because I'm not walking a straight line due to lack of oxygen to the brain,  I'll take full responsibility because I won't even remember my name.

zra

about 9 years ago

extremist lib wackos = extremist conservative wackos.

Frank

about 9 years ago

Really cold weather+too many Saxons= lack of comedy

Lojasmo

about 9 years ago

Jim: your rant makes no sense.  Furthermore, social security is solvent for at least another 20 years.  We could completely solve for social security by lifting the cap above $120k of income.

To the OP:  you are mad because these people were on your trail: a place where they had every right to be, and you compare it to how people would feel if you were sledding where you have NO legal right to be?

Asinine.

zra

about 9 years ago

Lojas: it's best to let him rant and ignore him. He's full of piss and wind. He's right in his lemondrop world and we're right in ours, yet he can't stand it when others view things differently, proven time and time again by his arrogant trolling.

B-man

about 9 years ago

@ Lojasmo, please try to read for content.  I never stated I was angry, I never stated no one else had the right to be out on a trail. I did compare it to me going where I'm not legally allowed...you got me on that one, but I did retract it in a later post. 

"The language of the second part may be too strong- change "refrain from being out there" to "please be careful and aware while you are out there, and please please please leash your animal"

I'm saying that there are trails specifically designated for walking, skiing, etc. and that those activities on a snowmobile trail could be a safety issue.

Thanks for the super awesome wisdom you have added to this post, and the name calling, that is super awesome too.

@jim-It is a little scary to me that we may agree on something.

Dave Sorensen

about 9 years ago

Yes, when ambling along a PDD thread, DO step aside  and let the trolls pass without responding. Otherwise emission of hot gasses will increase and there will be much loud, angry revving to be heard. Beep Beep!

The Big E

about 9 years ago

I ski, bike, and run, and I'm a commie America-hater.  Also, it's just fine with me if the snowmobile trails are restricted to sleds-only.  

It irritates the hell out of me when some dimwit on a snowmobile turfs hell out of one of the ski trails--however, I can appreciate that most snowmobilers don't do such things and that they might prefer not to have to worry about encountering skiers, walkers, dogs, and horses on THEIR designated trails.  [In point of fact, the person I'm most annoyed at this year is the guy I saw (and lectured) at Lester running on the ski trail a week or two ago.]

Personally, I'm glad that this city devotes resources to making sure there is a wide variety of outdoor winter recreational activities available, and I'd like to think we could all get out and do our own thing without getting all stupid and tribal.

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