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Remember to vote

Tuesday, Nov. 3, municipal elections will be held in Duluth. Vote early, vote often.

AFSCME’s endorsed candidates are: Kerry Gauthier, Beth Olson, Daniel Hartman, and Patrick Boyle. If you are a public employee, my wife is probably going to knock on your door or call you tonight. Be nice.

http://www.sos.state.mn.us/index.aspx?page=134

75 Comments

farglebargle

about 10 years ago

Sample ballot:
http://www.duluthmn.gov/clerk/voting/index.cfm
Election info:
http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/tag/group/News/tag/elections

lojasmo

about 10 years ago

Thanks, farglebargle!

the dbb

about 10 years ago

Please go out and vote. Also, remember that AFSCME may not necessarily represent your best interests as a property owner and/or a citizen. Vote for whomever you feel will best represent your interests.

O.G.Duluthian

about 10 years ago

Thanks for pointing out the candidates that have the endorsement of AFSCME. My choice is to avoid AFSCME candidates which has proven in the past to bring financial problems to Duluth. We have had enough of the AFSCME councilors and we need new blood to guide us out of this mess we call the Duluth City Council.

lojasmo

about 10 years ago

Agreed:  Vote for those  you believe best serve your interests.  Note, I did not say "vote for the afscme candidate" either.  

Thanks for playing, DBB and OG.

the dbb

about 10 years ago

That is true, you did not specifically instruct people to vote for AFSCME-endorsed candidates. However, by attaching the endorsement along with a public-service announcement to go out and vote, you very effectively added a nuance to your message to that effect.

Calk

about 10 years ago

I'm voting for the AFSCME endorsed candidates and doing so proudly.

Why? Because they are far superior to everyone else running, from Becky Hall, "I embrace family and have 5 kids and am just a bored housewife" Hall to Jim "Vote for me b/c I've been there forever" Stauber.  Sheez, is this the best the righties can do?

Anyway, I predict a clean sweep of people who will lead Duluth into the 21st century, so I expect to hoist a pint or two at Carmody tomorrow night in celebration. It's just time for some new blood in there.

Danny

about 10 years ago

"C"...whenever I see your initials in a PDD post, I tend to giggle to myself at how it sounds like "cock".

bob loblaw

about 10 years ago

I thought PDD was not a political blog?

farglebargle

about 10 years ago

So the original post was nuanced and political. I'm sure your tender minds won't get damaged anymore than they already are.
A discussion on the mythos than the unions are to blame for the city's financial woes might be useful, if only the town hall screamers don't join in.

markm

about 10 years ago

I have my new "I voted sticker" already.  We had a line at our polling place - well 3 people waiting for the clock to tick to 7 a.m.

Calk

about 10 years ago

Danny -- I wish you would obsess on someone else already. It's getting tiresome.

jim

about 10 years ago

Calk, it's interesting how you always put your political leanings first, rather than what is best for the city. Democrat or Republican- makes no difference. The truth is that AFSCME leaders are nepotistic sycophants that REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS COMMUNITY! They have financially ruined our city through their fat-cat closed meetings and back room deals, as well as making Duluth be associated with the stigma of being anti-business. Then you slam Becky Hall for being pro-family? We need a town full of people like the Halls. People that you can trust, people that will be good neighbors, people that understand the value of small business growth. All of you people that vote AFSCME lock step should be ashamed of yourselves. Until you start voting with your brain, we will continue to struggle to have a viable economy outside of tourism, hospitals and government. And when we go bankrupt, it will be you who cries first because you lost your cushy little government job. I too will raise a pint or two, but my celebration will have to wait until people like you move on to greener pastures.

Paul Lundgren

about 10 years ago

I'd like to sarcastically thank the DFL flyer-distributing zealot who felt it was necessary to traipse through my alley and tuck propaganda under every windshield wiper in sight this morning. 

Here's a tip for next time: When you see a rusty van with tall grass growing around it, it's unlikely someone will be driving it to the polls within 14 hours.

By the way, we all got the first 18 fliers from these candidates, but thanks for one more. I needed additional garbage blowing around my neighborhood.

farglebargle

about 10 years ago

Jim, I said no townhall screamers, please.

Carla

about 10 years ago

Becky Hall actually was my neighbor.

Sue

about 10 years ago

Paul,
I agree!  The flyers in the mail are also ridiculous!  I got three of the same AFSCME fliers yesterday (granted I only check my mail once a week).  I don't consider myself a tree hugger but just think of the trees that lost their lives so they could print all those stupid fliers that most people just toss in the trash or end up as road litter.

Barrett Chase

about 10 years ago

The problem with local elections is that I'm a single-issue voter, and it's so hard to find out who believes in the moon landing and who doesn't.

Calk

about 10 years ago

Jim, I'll try to ignore your emotional outburst and silly insults and point out that I'm not "slamming" Becky Hall for being pro-family. I myself am very pro-family, as anyone who knows me would attest.

Becky Hall's own campaign literature makes a big deal out of the fact that she has five children and that someone supporting her also has five children. In fact, Hall's lit piece doesn't just have a pic of her with her large family, it also has a photo of a woman I don't know who's supporting her, along with that woman's large family. I just don't see how that, together with her talking point about "embracing family" are at all relevant to a city council seat. Maybe this emphasis on her large family and her supporter's large family would be more appropriate if she ran for school board.

I think your claim that people vote "lockstep" with AFSCME-endorsed candidates is also silly. Believe me, Jim, I do vote with my brain. Most people I know do as well, as you'd know if you heard recent debates I've witnessed re The Red Plan. I've attended candidate forums, I've read media coverage, including that devastating profile of Becky Hall in which she claimed to be just an average housewife. I've even talked to the candidates. And neither Becky Hall nor Jim Stauber gave me good enough reasons to vote for them. I said it before, I'll say it again: Becky Hall wants me to vote for her because she's into family values, and Jim Stauber wants me to vote for him b/c he's been on city council forever. 

Sorry, not good enough for me. I consider voting for a candidate who can't give me good reasons to vote for him or her, beyond mealy-mouthed platitudes and vague generalities, as an insult to my intelligence. It's like someone telling me that I should be supporting a candidate who's obviously unqualified just because he's a minority.

The right to vote is so valuable;  people have been imprisoned, and have died so that we can have the right to vote. I am not going to squander that hard-won right by casting a thoughtless vote. And that's why I'm voting for Beth Olson, Dan Hartman, and Patrick Boyle today. They *earned* my vote.

c-freak

about 10 years ago

i hardly think becky hall would like it if i was her gaybor.

Paul Lundgren

about 10 years ago

Will someone please tell me who the anti-family candidate is so I can go vote for that person and get this over with?

c-freak

about 10 years ago

paul, pro-family is code for anti-gay.

Jeff B.

about 10 years ago

I am always nice to the people who knock on my door, but I also can't help asking them if they really believe they can change someone's mind by interupting dinner, or family time, or Monday night football - just to talk one-sided politics.  I form the opinions behind my vote through objective discussions with friends and loved ones, and I like these discussions to explore each candidate individually and independently.  After all that, how is some stranger going to show up on my doorstep the night before the election and expect to change my mind?  Give us some more credit.  Same with the flyers/litter on my car.  How many people went to their car, looked at a flyer, and decided it was compelling enough to win their vote.  Seriously.  Why waste your money?

Jim

about 10 years ago

> It's like someone telling me that I should be supporting a candidate who's obviously unqualified just because he's a minority.

Calk-
What a joke. I had hoped you wouldn't ignore my "emotional" outburst. Oh well, you continue with your "intelligent" decisions based on who your "intelligent" leader tells you to vote for. We all can smell your AFSCME stench based on your choices. You don't like Becky making an affiliation with her family values. I'm cool with that- different strokes. I, however do appreciate that statement- especially in our morally bankrupt society. You are embracing Beth Olson's extremist lesbian values. I'm cool with that too, because that speaks volumes. So does your rants- they seem to be as cloudy as your judgements. Eventually, people like you and Beth will pack up and leave this town because there will be nothing left. The bones won't have any meat left on them- no jobs, no money, and no hope. I can only pray that day comes sooner so we can get on with building Duluth towards a future rather than a sewer.

lojasmo

about 10 years ago

Jim;

Could you please delineate what "extremist lesbian values" are?  I'm interested.

Rob

about 10 years ago

Jim Bob. What does running gays out of town have to do with keeping meat on the bone? And your comment about the City Council members ruining this city?  I don't think the City is ruined.  I think that in the last 10-15 years Duluth has come a long way.  Lastly, you blame AFSCME for Duluth's anti business rep?  I can think of several groups I'd give that award to before I got to the union.  Every deal I've seen come through town the union has had someone at the City Council podium encouraging the council to vote YES, not NO.  By no means is that a defense of AFSCME - it is a criticism of you and the way you portray the issues.

Jeff B.

about 10 years ago

I would be interested to hear some of our social services people weigh in the whole "family values" discussion.  I imagine that people who actually work with families will confirm my belief that there are plenty of hetrosexual couples who are awful parents and lack family values of any kind.  I have also met homosexual couples who have created a loving, structured home environment for their children.  I'm sure the opposite is also true in both accounts, but do any of you have proof that heterosexual couples have a lock on family values while homosexual couples are 100% against them?  It is an honest question, especially with such high divorce rates among heterosexual couples.

Calk

about 10 years ago

Jim, unless someone starts having sex in the council chambers during a city council meeting, I couldn't give a damn as who they might love, as long as they're happy. That goes for Becky Hall as much as it goes for Beth Olson. I'm sorry for you that you are so filled with anger and with hate, but I think wishing that someone like me leaves town isn't going to solve any of your problems. Jim, place the blame where it really lies -- and believe me, it doesn't lie with AFSCME. It lies within yourself. 

Now, if you want to continue to spew venom against me,  because my world view is different from yours, I suggest you move over to that other blog, as people there might be more receptive to your misplaced hate and homophobia.

Bad Cat!

about 10 years ago

I'd vote for sex in the council chambers...

Bennie

about 10 years ago

I like this quote from Claire:

"Now, if you want to continue to SPEW VENOM against me, because my WORLD VIEW IS DIFFERENT from yours, I suggest you move over to that other blog, as people there might be more receptive to YOUR MISPLACED HATE and homophobia."

Claire, you have been spewing "venom" and "misplaced hate" for years against former, current and wannabe city councilors.  Stauber, Little, Fedora and your latest tirades against Hall because she has pictures of her family espousing family values, or she wrote a column about a certain former VP candidate.  How many columns or Letters to the Editor have you written advocating for your favored candidate?  And now that's not tolerable because she's a woman that has conservative views?  If you want to stop the venom or misplaced hate, perhaps you could lead by example, but I doubt that would happen . . . now or ever.

And get over that other blog.  We don't need it here (you, too, Danny).  If you don't like it, don't go there.

Calk

about 10 years ago

I never wrote any letters to the editor against Tim Little.

Danny G

about 10 years ago

Wait a minute Bennie...what did I say about that other "blog"?

Calk

about 10 years ago

Seriously, Bennie, now you are saying I can't voice my opinions either supporting or opposing a candidate? If you'll notice, there's a *big* difference between a citizen criticizing a candidate for their platform, like Becky Hall's "pro-family values" platform, or for their actions as elected officials in the public arena, as I've done with all the right-wing politicians you name -- and Jim criticizing people for voting against his preferred candidates, calling us morons and AFSCME stooges, questioning our intelligence and motives, wishing we'd move out of town. 

I'm sorry I gave his ridiculous comments the dignity of a response.

Jim

about 10 years ago

Please Calk- I don't need your pity. As far as the city being ruined, I guess you don't include the highest unemployment rate in the state as being noteworthy. Or, that we're on the brink of being bankrupt, and the worst financial shape of any city (in Minnesota) our size. Or that we have the only city in Minnesota that will picket a mom and pop business for using non-union workers. Or, that our young people can't wait to escape when they graduate. Or, that our biggest employers are government and a non-profit. None of these are obviously an indicator for you. Are you living in a cave?!!! (This is where I'd slap your face)Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. We're in terrible shape, and it's ALL because of flakes like you. Yes, YOU! City and County pensions were discussed as a major future financial burden when Doty was a Commisioner! They ALL knew it, but if you didn't play the AFSCME game, you were going to have jack-booted pin heads doing everything possible to keep you out of office. That's right, if you didn't play by their rules, you were out of the game. Funny thing is that it's still going on today! Career ticks like Oberstar make their living off of my money, while supporting people that will keep him in office. Let me ask you this- do you REALLY think its right that AFSCME members deserve better employment packages than private sector jobs? Is it right that a County Commissioner only has to attend ONE meeting per year to earn their pay of over $40,000 per year, despite being labeled a part time position? Well, DO YOU? DO YOU? How can you look at yourself in the mirror knowing that is their position? We've got thousands of struggling people in this town, and you are supporting the very scum that put us in this position. I don't pity you, I loathe you.

As far as being a homophobe, fine. Typical euphorian- don't agree with my view, label me as being anti-gay. How about this measure- I'll tell you what I am for, then you can tag me with something else. I'm for Moms and Dads. Silly me, I think that in order for a kid to have a healthy upbringing, they need a father AND a mother, not two mothers- of which one has short hair and a deep voice. Or, for that matter, a Dad that would rather get drunk with his buddies and screw around with a whore than spend time with his kids. Beyond that, do whatever you want to in the confines of your own home, but enough of the marching, bumper stickers, educational brainwashing, disrupting and strong arm shaming. Town Howlers have nothing on the likes of Beth Olson. She's an expert at disrupting public meetings to make people aware of her homo-plight. There is where your sympathy should be placed. I get it. You want to have a life partner, I say great. Just don't call it marriage, because it isn't. And don't use science to bring kids into the world for your amusement, because that's all it is- nothing more than a pet you can hold in front of everyone so you can push your agenda on society. 

Lastly, why do you think that our family value system is unraveling? I believe its for lots of reasons. If I had to point my finger, I would blame the media and its inability to check itself. There isn't a respect for life anymore- just check out the games kids play. They can kill and rape for hours with no consequence. They listen to songs with hate messages (check out crack a bottle by eminem), they are taught in school that it's not important to have a Mom and Dad in their life. They are taught to live in the now- get pregnant? Don't worry about it- we have a pill that will make "it" go away. Child molesters are given smaller sentences than a guy caught with a gram of coke or an ounce of weed. Why is the divorce rate growing you ask? Look in the mirror my liberal whiner. YOU are the problem. It is YOU who is legislating this turn in society that is eating at us like a cancer. Soon it will be too late. Just like the frog in the cool pot of water with a low flame under it.

c-freak

about 10 years ago

jesus h. christ on a cross......

Paul Lundgren

about 10 years ago

It seems our local politicians aren't half as crazy as the people who vote for them.

Paul Lundgren

about 10 years ago

By the way, Duluth's unemployment rate is 7.1 percent -- far from being the highest in the state.

Bad Cat!

about 10 years ago

Hey douchebag, you're on the wrong blog.
http://www.duluthcitizensblog.com/

Bret

about 10 years ago

Computer Hint of the Day: (1) Look for the key labeled "Caps Lock"; (2) Press it until you see the little green light turn off.

Danny G

about 10 years ago

Regardless of the the point or two that this guy was actually right about (there were a couple of correct statements in there, IMO) that was HI-larious.

Tony Ramone

about 10 years ago

I see Jim typing his irrational rant with smoke coming out of his ears. I think Jim might have anger issues. 

Jim, maybe you should relax and watch a movie tonight, because you are not going to like the results of the election -- it will be a great night for the gays. I suggest you watch Falling Down.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106856/

Jim

about 10 years ago

Damn straight I'm pissed. I'm sick of whiny week knee liberals. My turn C-Freak. Cozy up with your partner and cry over a cup of chai. I don't think your gal Muffy Olson is going to make it.

Patsy

about 10 years ago

As well as being wrong about the unemployment rate in Duluth, Jim seems to belong to that group that honestly believes we are on the eve is distruction.  The fact is, there are plenty of young people in Duluth; they aren't all flocking out at the first chance.  They're working here, starting their own businesses and getting involved.  Just check the Chamber of Commerce; hardly a liberal organization, and see the average age of their membership.  Not only that, but Duluth's population was younger in the last census.  I don't think you can argue with facts.

So, we're having some problems.  What city isn't?  Ours are directly related to policies from St. Paul which, by the way, is run by the Republicans. Our Republican Governor cut LGA and that's hurt all cities; not just ours.

The country is having a financial crisis; not just Duluth.  That crisis was caused by the Republican policies in Washington that deregulated Wall Street and the banks and allowed greed to rule.  They called it a Free Market, but it was anything but free.

I don't think AFSCME is the devil, but I also don't think they are always right.  It's a balancing act to run a city.

It's too bad there are people who seem to be completely intolerant.  They clearly do not understand that the world is made up of all kinds of people, and that accepting others is the best way to start building a better future.

Bennie

about 10 years ago

Claire,

Don't twist the short reply I had into something else.  My point was, you claim others are spewing hatred or villifying you because their opinions or beliefs don't match yours.  And yet, you tend to be the first to cast stones or villify those who you don't agree with.  I said, why don't you lead by example.  That's it.

Calk

about 10 years ago

Like I said, "Bennie," it's my constitutional right and my privilege as a citizen to question, comment upon, and criticize statements made by and positions taken by candidates running for public office, as well as those  already holding office. Sorry you have a problem with that, but I consider free speech to be my inalienable right as an American citizen. And, by the way, I do so admire your courage in casting aspersions under cover of anonymity. How very brave of you. At least those politicians and wanna-be-politicians I criticize know who I am and can and the ones with some integrity (like Mr. Stauber) have responded to my concerns.

Bennie

about 10 years ago

Enough said.  Then anyone else can take some shots at you under the guise of "free speech", under any different monikers that they may employ.  And I suspect that you'll stop whining about "spewing venom" and "misplaced hate" from this point forward.  I'm done with topic and am going to peruse other PDD favorites, but I suspect the other sharks in the water may carry this thread further.  I won't cast stones, but on the other hand, others may feel partial to the "eye for an eye" theory, too.  Have a good night, Claire.

Calk

about 10 years ago

Thanks, "Bennie," I think I will have a very good night, despite your vague threats of retaliation for whatever.

Danny G.

about 10 years ago

He he.  I like Benny.

Hamburger Helper

about 10 years ago

Jim, add to the list Duluth's accomplishment of dropping from Minnesota's 3rd largest city to 4th. Maybe we can dive to 5th with the new council.

Jim

about 10 years ago

Our Cities problems are directly related to Saint Paul?! Are you frickin kidding me?! Why- because they didn't put a toll booth on Thompson Hill? How about a little culpability! You "labor" lackies have been hacking away at our economy so long there is NOTHING left. Don't you look at the streets? And unemployment? Again, our two biggest employers are SMDC and the Government. They have had a far lighter rate of layoffs than the private sector. Check your stats. What does that mean? In areas that count (like small business owners) we are dying and have a rate close to double that of the rest of the state. Even if you don't factor that in, we're the worst of all large cities in MN. Don't believe me? Do your research for before spewing more liberal garbage. According to the Dept. of Labor, of the top 7 cities- Fargo 4%, Grand Forks 4%, Mankato 6%, MSP 7%, Rochester 6%, St. Cloud 7% Duluth has the highest rate- over 8% (close to 9 last month). Yeah, I know Aitkin and Hibbing probably are higher. They probably had a republican town clerk or something back in the 80's. They probably caused the housing crash too, not the Fannies or Bubba Clinton. As far as Wall Street is concerned, that doesn't have anything to do with non-partisan greed or European world banks or the devaluation of the dollar or leaving the gold standard. Yes Patsy, you have all the answers. Maybe, if you opened up your eyes to the reality of the situation instead of being lulled to sleep by the DFL spin doctors you would see what is happening. We are on the brink. Unemployment is running out for lots of folks. The commercial real estate market is nose diving, which means businesses are closing. The Fact is that we are on extremely thin ice. Our decades of irresponsible spending has got us in a world of hurt, and it will continue to get worse as long as the DFL is in charge of the public coffer. 

Lastly, I don't think the Republicans are any better. In my mind they are just as bad as the Libs. If I had my druthers, I would make both parties take an elephant walk and start electing no bullshite reps that want to limit government and grow business. Period. 

To Calk and Patsy- a sincere thank you. I do feel much, much better now.

wildgoose

about 10 years ago

Taking a break from the heat for a second ... I find it noteworthy that Beth Olsen and Becky Hall both lost their bids for the city council so the "Family Values" thing may have been a red herring in this election (as it usually is), maybe not I don't know.  Family values are a huge issue for me, personally, and I won't say who i voted for but I would have been comfortable working with either of those two women on family issues if they had made it to the council and I think that they both feel very strongly about the issue of strong families, safe neighborhoods and etc etc etc. So I didn't make my decision regarding the two of them based on "family values" and I suspect that few people did, actually.  

Regarding the social service type of answer requested I'll weigh in. There is a great deal of evidence that indicate that families with two married parents do better on basically every measurable level of child-well being (future earnings, literacy, success in relationships, success in school, etc). So healthy marriage is good for kids, that's a water-tight case, I don't think anything will ever come along that is better for kids in the long term than to grow up with their loving, married parents.  BUT since there is no gay marriage in (most of) this country it is not possible to rule out the chance that kids raised in a gay marriage situation could achieve same or similar. Can't study it if it doesn't exist right? If I recall correctly the American Academy of Pediatrics does recognize same sex, long term monogamous relationships as a perfectly acceptable alternative (as I recall, I said, don't quote me).  

There best Child Abuse prevention research identifies 5 or 6 generalizations that all parents should aspire to if they want strong families and being gay or heterosexual is not listed as one of them.  For more on that check out:  http://www.strengtheningfamilies.net/

edgeways

about 10 years ago

But, a few notes: In a fashion, the term "marriage" is just a word. It does come with a lot of institutional support and for that reason I feel it is an important issue for same sex partners to achieve that level of parity. However, from the standpoint of child rearing all studies done to date indicate children of gay parents are... well just like children of non-gay parents. There has been no head to head study between gay couples and non-gay couples so we can not make any assertions on that level, except that being legally married, or not, does not constitute a "couple". I know several "straight" families that are not "married" but have children and live as a functional, traditional, happy family. 

IRT to the studies of single parents vs together parents, those studies are important, but limited, while it indicated that children growing up with a father do better than those that do not, it leaves out any number of variables. Do children in single parent homes do better than children in two parent homes where there is significant domestic, substance or child abuse? Why does the often quoted study only reference absent fathers? How about children who grow up absent a father but with an extended support network? There are many configurations or reasons for single parenthood that don't get factored in. 

It is a bit tenuous to take a study that says one small thing and try and apply it across the spectrum. I think a problem we face is that for so long we have had it in our heads (culturally) that "family" means one thing (mom, dad, kids), and so everything is designed to accommodate that perception rather than seeing a family, in whatever form it may take (single parent, two same sex parents, multiple caregivers....), and saying how can we help that family succeed.

wildgoose

about 10 years ago

I agree with almost everything that edgeways has said.

There are now many studies on father presence vs father absence. This includes research on so-called cohabitating and/or "never married" parents.  This fatherhood study is both compelling and  comprehensive but quite preachy (to warn you in advance):  http://www.fatherhood.org/downloadable_files/FatherAbsenceCost.pdf

I have not seen much on same sex family or marriage studies and nothing that is longitudinal.

Jim

about 10 years ago

Sorry, don't agree at all. The gay community seems to concentrate so much of their efforts on the term, versus the parity. Supposedly it's equal rights that they want. If they get all of the legal protection from a civil union, minus the label, shouldn't that be good enough? This has been proposed over and over, yet the gays say nay- we want the legal protection and the label. 

As far as the studies, there are many holes in the variables you pointed out. Typical science will break down everytime you reduce it to its elements. Look at it from a logical point of view- we are created to procreate one way. Nature intended us to have moms and dads. Sometimes that doesn't work out. When it doesn't, the strong survive and the weak get eaten. Anything else is a less than ideal situation, both for parents and offspring. In the long run, it won't matter. Women will eventually rule. Check out the Bonobos. They are way ahead of their time...

Resolut

about 10 years ago

"Parenting is easy.  Just ask yourself one question, What would a monkey do?"

-Lucky from King of the Hill

Bad Cat!

about 10 years ago

Nature intended us to have moms and dads? That's pretty naive thinking, considering that nature allows for homosexuality, and nature made male-female monogamous parenting uncommon in the animal world. Do not assume what nature has intended for us.

c-freak

about 10 years ago

jim - my grown step-kids would beg to differ.

the Big E

about 10 years ago

Enough--let's just let Jim shuffle back under his bridge.

Calk

about 10 years ago

I agree with The Big E, there's no discussing with Jim, he's got his mind blocked and his heart set against equal rights for all. C-Freak, I didn't know you had step-kids!

Bad Cat!

about 10 years ago

Yea, I know it's bad to feed the trolls, but they're just so fucking stupid!
Ahh well, live and let live - the stupid and hateful will die alone and friendless.

wildgoose

about 10 years ago

You know, I dread being labeled a "troll" for my own sometimes controversial views and opinions.  One difference I hope is that people find me interested in finding and serving what is actually true and not a "cave" or backward mentality.  Or worst of all just spouting venom in hopes of getting a rise out of people.  I mean worst of all for me, apparently that method of discourse is pleasant for some (on all sides of every issue) but it makes my skin crawl. I'd rather spend minutes sorting through what we agree on rather than hours debating what we disagree.  It's not a perfect philosophy, but it's mine.

edgeways

about 10 years ago

First of all, we are not wholly products of "nature", I, and I suspect many of us over the age of 30 would not be alive if it was not for some really "unnatural" cultural advantages. The entire thrust of culture is to disseminate information and to protect one another.

Even so, the only thing "nature" requires there be is a sperm donor and an egg donor amongst animals who reproduce sexually. That is all nature requires. Even a womb is optional in some cases. How offspring are raised is as varied as you can possible imagine. Maternal, paternal, community, no caregiver, multiple caregivers... You simply CAN NOT point to nature and say, well obviously we need to do it like this because it is natural. Additionally, as Badcat indicates there are ample cases of homosexual behavior in the so called natural world. 

Typical science will not break down every time you reduce it to its elements. Typical science says something very specific, it is when we try to interpret it, especially into social contexts that things break down. If designed and implemented correctly the science is perfectly valid. WHAT IT SAYS often gets twisted out of whack and misappropriated into much more general statements without taking what it _does not_ say into context.

I don't entirely disagree with the "civil union" approach to benefits for same sex couples, but there is a strong argument that doing so creates a "separate but equal" situation, which has some pretty negative associations stuck with it. So, in my opinion the State should reduce all legal unions to "Civil Union" and reserve the term "marriage" for a religious ceremony, if the partners so want one, and place very few restriction (age limits...) on that.

If you really ascribe to the "strong survive, weak get eaten" mindset, ignoring for the moment the inherent strength in cooperation and social networks, then you are saying it is ok for someone to come over, beat you up take your possessions and your family and toss you in the lake to freeze to death. Anyone helping you is a sign of individual weakness and should be discouraged because it would water down the evolutionary stock. Frankly, that line of thinking and mode of operation is pure crap, and very very few people actually practice what they preach in regards to it. I certainly don't want that to happen to you, because... well because we live in a community and count on one another even if we disagree vehemently about certain things.

andy

about 10 years ago

Right on Edgeways!

Very well put.

Jim

about 10 years ago

Yakk! Evidently Washington School let the monkeys out. Bad Cat and the rest of you weenies--you must not have a mirror to look into. Maybe the cesspool created by your political leanings will offer you enough of a reflection to realize what a hypocrite you are. Despite your obvious hate of those who don't agree with you, the majority of the country shares my views.  Since you trod on my bridge, I'll come out again to tell you. Homosexuality is an abnorality. No different than a cat with 6 toes. Marriage should be between a man and woman, as God intended it to be. Privately, people don't agree with homosexuality, or their agenda. When people are in the comforts of a private voting booth, they will vote their conscious, thus the outcome in Maine on Tuesday. Despite the GLBT's best efforts, including legislating contrary to public opinion, it FAILED, just like EVERY other time it has been put to a vote! 34 times it has been asked of the people. 34 times it was voted down. What does that tell you beyond your simplistic view that conservative Americans are stupid? Are we all wrong?! Out of fear of being labeled, people keep their opinion to themselves until it's time to vote. Most people don't like to advertise their private business,contrary to the GLBT's desire to become a public Gomorrah.  You can argue that homosexuality is found in nature--to what point? So is cannibalism and inner family breeding. My dog will occasionaly dine on a turd too, despite having good kibble at home. So have at it. Eat all the turds you want. Share your leftovers with your friends, because I'm sure they'll want to dig in once they find out how much you enjoyed it. Feel free to continue to deny any existance of "normal", because that will remove you from any type of personal responsibility or culpability, which is what all Democrats seem to want now days. By the way, you have a piece of spinach from my last  dinner on your tooth...

Tony Ramone

about 10 years ago

Wow, I thought this thread was dead.

Gay marriage is the civil rights issue of our time. The people who oppose it will find themselves on the wrong side of history. One-hundred years from now people like Jim will be put in the same camp as the people who opposed the abolition of slavery.

Citing popular opinion, I think, means nothing. If you would have put civil rights for African-Americans to a popular vote in 1956, the majority would have most likely voted against giving equal rights to African-Americans. 

Jim asks "Are we all wrong?!" 
YES, Jim, you and the folks like you are all wrong.

lojasmo

about 10 years ago

Jim, the twenty percenter, thinks that his dying opinions are somewhat relevant to the debate.   It might be true among his Tuesday morning coffee clatch, but not in the real world (especially in the bluest county in all of Minnesota)

On the most recent referendum in Maine, 18-24 year old Mainers voted to allow gay marriage by 80% to 20%  We are moving to equality, jimmy.  Get used to it, or get digging.

zra

about 10 years ago

jim is clinging desperately to an ideology that is no longer valid, has been disproven and discredited time and time again, and is increasingly unable to support and sustain itself.

jim, your insistence of hate is mere projection on your part. your ilk wields hate to keep people divided, and in turn accuses your presumed enemies of your own distorted emotions...whereas the rest of us (the 80%) would rather embrace and unite.

Calk

about 10 years ago

Well said, Tony Ramone. Gay marriage rights is the civil rights issue of our time. It will be the law of the land by the time my child is an adult, just as segregation was commonplace when I was born, but inter-racial marriage became the law of the land by the time I became an adult.

Tony Ramone

about 10 years ago

In 1896 only one Supreme Court Justice, John Marshall Harlan, had the guts and the good sense to vote against the constitutionality of separate but equal.  Legend says that Thurgood Marshall used to read Harlan's decent in Plessy v. Ferguson as inspiration when he was arguing Brown v. Board of Education. Harlan's vote against "separate but equal" only represented 12.5% of the Supreme Court, but does anyone today think he was on the wrong side of history?

jim

about 10 years ago

Embrace and unite? Isn't that the Washington School I was referring to? 

I find it very entertaining to be among you and have the chance to call out the truth-- and in a sense, force you to read the truth. You are a very small minority. Most people in private will vote just like me. The 18-25 year olds you are referring to are mothing more than selfish little products of the liberal education system. Once they grow up, they either become awakened and vote a bit more conservative, or they move to Washington School in Duluth, MN and unite and embrace. Oh, and parade too. Don't forget about the gay daze spectacular in the summer. You know the one, where all the flamers come out in their hot pants and french kiss in front of our children going out to eat with their family. Yeah, you "guys" are right. It's only a matter of time...

Calk

about 10 years ago

Jim, you obviously haven't been to the Duluth-Superior Gay Pride parade.  I didn't see anyone wearing hot pants and I didn't see anyone french kissing. It's all pretty P-G. Anyway, I'd have more problem with people drunk and throwing up on my kid's shoes as happens as other parades than I do with people expressing their love for one another -although I draw the line at sex in the city council chambers!

edgeways

about 10 years ago

*sigh* Jim, you really aren't among anyone. You are sitting alone on a computer, yanking people's chain by throwing stuff out randomly that isn't thought-out or even remotely internally consistent. All you got is insults and juvenile behavior. By all means continue to make a jackass out of yourself.

zra

about 10 years ago

you're projecting again jim. you gotta work on your hate and anger issues, buddy.

washington school? seriously? is that really the focal point of your ire, jim...or is that where you tell yourself that we all live to be better able to lump all of us into the same basket so you don't have to acknowledge that you and i are actually neighbors? washington's a nice place, i guess...though i've only really been there a couple of times.  like my Chester Park home much better. More real estate. More room to raise my passel of products of a liberal education system.

and you're right...it IS only a matter of time. only a matter of time before you and those who think like you, and your hateful, selfish, antiquated ideology are no longer an issue. like it or not, the products of the educational system (i'll refrain from using "selfish" an asinine term, being that it's more about "us" and "we" for them as opposed to your "me me me" mentality...)are going to be here long after you're gone.

You lose, jim. you're outnumbered. you're outwitted and out of your league. You're not schooling anyone on the way things are, only carrying on about how you think things should be, which is nothing more than a carbon copy of the hateful thinking eschewed by the Good Reverend Fred Phelps and his misguided followers. You're not fooling anyone, changing anyone's minds and certainly not gaining any credibility among the posters and readers of this site.

It'd be wise of you to quit while we're ahead.

Barrett Chase

about 10 years ago

Personally I wonder when people are going to stop feeding this troll.

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