Forum on “The Struggle for Abortion Rights”

THE STRUGGLE FOR ABORTION RIGHTS: a panel discussion
—————————————————-
Sunday, January 24 at 7pm
Duluth Building for Women at 32 E. 1st St.
(basement meeting room)
—————————————————-
To mark the anniversary of the historic Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision, you’re invited to a panel discussion on abortion rights. Speaking will be Heather Bradford, Chere Suzette Bergeron and Linda Gokee-Rindal. After the presentations there’ll be an open discussion period.

This event is free and open to the public. It is sponsored by Socialist Action and the UMD Reproductive Justice Collective. Bring a friend!
pro-choice

62 Comments

E.

about 12 years ago

Visions of out-of-control "Town Hall Meetings" are dancing in my head.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Great, a bunch of murdering feminists declaring war on their own offspring.  I'm so glad that our educational institutions have made their facilities available for these unabashed proponents of baby killing.

It's really sad that we live in a society that believes that it is OK for a person to decapitate a human being.

Paul Lundgren

about 12 years ago

I don't speak for all of PDD's moderators, but let me just say that I'm pretty much throwing in the towel on trying to keep the comments on this from getting out of hand. 

Have fun everybody! Enjoy the free for all. And don't forget that name calling and hyperbole are the best ways to get your point across!

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

It ain't name calling if it's an accurate adjective.

Soren

about 12 years ago

Visions of "soon-to-be out of control forums" are dancing in my head.

nuance

about 12 years ago

hey snuesse, womans body, womans choice.  idiot!

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

And the baby's body?  How about its choice?  See, you and your ilk will never argue the merit of destroying a human life before birth, but to kill a tree?  Or burn a lump of coal?  FOUL!  FOUL!  See, that is what is backwards about the liberal agenda.....it believes that the well-being of inanimate objects are more important than the health and happiness of human beings.  And THAT is completely fucked up.

cando

about 12 years ago

Well, if babies didn't kill so many trees and burn so  much coal...damn babies.

vicarious

about 12 years ago

Oh, Lord. I'm begging the author of this post to delete and close comments...

Except, comments like cando's open a whole new can of hilarious worms.

rights-advocate

about 12 years ago

Snuesse,

Abortions are going to happen whether you like it or not. Your religious views are more at issue. Are you against contraceptives and birth control? Why not help stop unwanted pregnancies? Why not prevent stds?

Perhaps you'd like your religion to have more bearing on everyone's life? Or have abstinence-only education for our children, shutting them out from the truth of reproduction and information about their own bodies.


Well, it isn't about you. It isn't about your petty beliefs in some made up folk stories. It is about women and their own choices.

lojasmo

about 12 years ago

Sneuse:  A baby is a human being and a person.  A fetus is not a person, and thus has no rights.  Furthermore, a child, and most adolescents don't have "rights" inasmuch as they cannot sign contracts, but rather must have their parents' consent.

This from a pro-life pro-liberty person who believes the government has no business legislating the legality of medical procedures.

Also, as Paul lundren has pretty much signed off...You, sneuse, are a dimwit.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Ah, I see.  You'd like to draw a line in the sand on this issue rather than look further into the actuality of it.  Abortion is taking a human life.  Whether or not you'd like to argue constitutional law on the issue, there is no denying that a fetus is living.....s/he has a heartbeat, s/he has brainwaves, s/he has fingerprints.....isn't a heartbeat and brain activity what one considers when pronouncing a person dead or alive?  Sadly, I think this example may hit home for y'all: A vet cracks open the skull of each puppy dog as it is being born, and uses a vacuum to suction out it's brain.....even though it COULD survive if given the chance.  The puppy is alive, and moving--has a heartbeat, and brain activity, but ITS EFFING SKULL IS CRACKED OPEN, and ITS BRAIN IS SUCTIONED OUT.  Now change the situation to a DOCTOR (who took a hypocratic oath to 'first do no harm'--which is a complete JOKE in this instance) and a pregnant woman.  No different.

I have two nieces that were born last April.  They were born at 25 weeks.  25.  Effing.  Weeks.  They've been complete warriors in their effort to live, and they will live completely normal lives from what the doctors have said.  Essentially, those of you who are in favor of abortion are OK with offing these miracle babies WEEKS after they were born.  Crack their skulls in their bassinets and suction out their functioning brains.  Same thing, different venue.

Now, please take that in to account when you try to justify medical infanticide.......problem is, you can't.

zra

about 12 years ago

i wonder how Snuesse feels about Universal health care.

TimK

about 12 years ago

You realize that those aborted fetuses might have grown up to be.....Snuesse!

rights-advocate

about 12 years ago

Sneuse, now you are just lying. You are believing some scare pamphlet that you found somewhere. You are misinformed, plain and simple.

You know what is really sick? Anti-abortion activists that actually blow up buildings and kill people. Do you want to get behind that kind of *actual* murder and mayhem?

Sneuse, it isn't your decision and I am so glad about that.

jonsson

about 12 years ago

Mr. Lundgren,

Kudos on your laissez-faire (imagine italics, please) handling of the comments, scurrilous as they may be. 

I am always delighted when the underlying principles of democracy are not sacrificed because they are inconsistent with the underlying principles of democracy.

Calk

about 12 years ago

I used to work for a publishing company housed in the Building for Women, so I had to run through the gauntlet of anti-abortion protesters twice a week and  my interns really got harassed. These people were mean, and, BTW, most of them were men from rural Wis. One of these jerks even chased me into the BFW one weekend when I was seriously pregnant and going in to catch up on some work before I took time off. What if I'd fallen and miscarried? These anti-abortion bullies piss me off. They really don't care about "saving babies," it's just another way to bully women and control them.

Jude

about 12 years ago

rights-advocate: 
You say it better than I could.  Thanks for your posts.

cando

about 12 years ago

BRAAAAAAAINS!

doubledutch

about 12 years ago

calk, i know!  those guys would hassle me when i'd go in for a hair cut (when adeline was in the building).  why would you want to just yell at every random person, instead of engaging people in a meaningful conversation?  i mean, really, if you want to influence someone's opinion?

i have that "keep abortion legal" logo as a sticker (one of many) on my tackle box of sewing supplies.

E.

about 12 years ago

Snuesse! OMG! I never realized the procedure was so HORRIFYING! You TOTALLY have just changed my mind on the issue!...NOT.

Nobody is going to change anybody's mind at this forum. As far as I am concerned it is a waste of time unless you look at it like going to the circus or watching "reality" TV. You just have to enjoy it for the spectacle that it is sure to be.

As for your puppy analogy, alas, it is a poor one. You see, all puppies are adorable, and all babies are disgusting and gross. Therefore it is alright to abort babies, but not puppies.

Cando, you are awesome.

doubledutch

about 12 years ago

E., I don't think the forum is attempting to change anyone's mind.  I think it's for people who either support "the struggle for abortion rights" or want to learn more.  I'm sure anti-choicers will picket, and maybe some will come inside, but I seriously doubt they will be on the panel.  It's a discussion, not a debate.  For people who are interested in the topic, it's not a waste of time.

c-freak

about 12 years ago

i'm against abortions but i'm all about mean nuns taking unwed mothers on bumpy hayrides in the middle of the night during a severe thunderstorm. or pushing them down a flight of stairs or making them swill draino. just sayin.

Lesterlynn

about 12 years ago

I'm with Sneusse.  After all, our country is SO supportive of motherhood.  All of us enjoy access to free, 100% effective contraception and maternity care—and nobody ever gets pregnant accidentally because we actually teach kids about contraception instead of just focusing on ineffective abstinence-only sex ed.  Men don't rape women, ever, so no woman has to deal with a pregnancy that results from nonconsensual sex.  Employers grant plenty of paid maternity leave so that women who leave their jobs to give birth can return to work at the same rate of pay without penalizing their careers.  When they go back to work, they can place their children in a safe day care facility staffed by skilled workers—all for free.  Everyone earns enough to house, feed, and clothe their families, and those who can't work can benefit from a variety of social programs guaranteeing that all families live well above the poverty line.  These programs are absolutely exempt from budget cuts, and people who receive these services are never, ever subject to social stigma or stereotypes.  Every child has access to free medical, dental, and vision care so nobody ever has to choose between food and medicine.  Children in risky situations are immediately placed in our well-funded, fully-staffed foster-care so that no child ends up homeless, ignored, or abused--but no child ever spends more than a few days in foster care before being placed with loving, supportive adoptive parents.

There is no need for abortion.  No need at all.

wildgoose

about 12 years ago

There is a legal agreement between the partners in the Building for Women and "protesters" that governs what can and cannot happen there I have read it but don;t remeber all of the details.  But as far as I recall, unless they suspend the agreement for this seminar, many of the anti-abortion folks will simply not be allowed in the building.  

For a real dialogue to take place it would probably be best for it to occur somewhere else.  If a real dialogue is even possible, that is. 

The excellent 2006 documentary "Lake of Fire" presented "both" sides of this issue better than anything I have ever seen: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0841119/  Don't watch it if you don't want to be disturbed

cando

about 12 years ago

Isn't living in Copenhagen swell?

Marin Christensen

about 12 years ago

Snuesse, What people do with their lives is up to them. I also don't believe a zygote is a baby, and I don't believe that society should promote the potential of an unborn creature over the actions of already living people. No wonder people feel so disenfranchised these days -- we're doing so much work and yet all the hype is placed on babies and fetuses. I love babies, don't get me wrong, but they are all just POTENTIAL, and we should be focusing on promoting and acknowledging those who are LIVING and doing good work first. As for your comment on the liberal agenda: They're not placing importance on the objects themselves, it's about our dwindling resources, it's about taking care of the people already here on earth. Try looking at the big picture. Now, let's not forget there's an over-population crisis, and if everything were left up to people like yourself, there would be no restrictions on reproduction, and no regard to the planet that supports that population. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happens then.
So, for lack of a better idiom: You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

E.

about 12 years ago

Doubledutch,
I concede that you are right, partially. The presentations could be educational and useful for people looking for more information, from either side of the fence. I might even attend if that were the only thing on the docket. The "open discussion period" however I suspect will be a hemmoraging fountain of rhetoric and pointless positional comments and finger pointing.
Perhaps the opportunity to speak one's mind will increase the attendance. But the people attending only to speak their minds won't be learning or listening anything from the panel.
I would be interested to hear some assesments from attendees after the event, from both sides of the fence. Perhaps posted here.

E.

Calk

about 12 years ago

@Wildgoose, I don't think there was any agreement in place between the BFW and the anti-choice protesters, I think it's the law. They can't trespass onto BFW property and have to stay a certain distance from the building. It's been a while, I wish I remembered. I remember going out to yell at them when they'd bug my interns -- they would agree not to bug them, but then I'd get another intern the following quarter and it'd start up all over again.

wildgoose

about 12 years ago

There is an injuction, that is true.  The full details, and whether they are followed or not ... that's another matter.

hbh1

about 12 years ago

I think I'm going to get pregnant and go have an abortion just to piss off Snuesse. That's right, I'm that craven and horrible. I'll send you the video Snuesse. 

Oh wait. You mean I have to wait waaaay beyond the normal abortion window and, you know, pretend I'm not pregnant for an insane amount of weeks to have the procedure he mentioned? I have to travel long distances to find a doctor who will do it?? I'll have to basically prove I'm in serious mental or physical danger before a doctor will do it? Well that's just silly. 

I guess I'll have to prepare that cage in the garage after all.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Wow, y'all are some selfish, selfish people.  You'd rather off a baby than raise it yourself, or give it up for adoption.  Aborting a baby that could go to a loving home?  Makes me sick.

I might just have to show up to this discussion.  I have some questions that need to be answered.

A preview, for those who might also be in attendance:

Why is there a drastic increase within the following year in suicide rates amongst women who have had abortions?  (From a government study done in Finland and in California)

Why aren't the potentially devestating psychological effects of abortion communicated to the mothers?

Why isn't adoption presented as an option at abortion clinics?  (I know this to be a valid from personal experience.)

Why is it that the father doesn't have a say in the matter of abortion, but is on the hook for child support?  Isn't that a massive double standard?

I've got a couple of other questions, but I think I'll just wait and see how the first few go over this Sunday.  It should be interesting.

udarnik

about 12 years ago

Snuesse, correlation is not causation, and in the both the Finnish study and the California study (David Reardon's?), causation was not established in the abortion-suicide correlation. Correlation does not equal causation, and many of the risk factors for abortion and depression are the same.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

There's a correlation between drunk driving and death, but that doesn't mean that the driver's drunken state is always the cause.  And if the same risk factors are present in people who have abortions and people who are depressed, shouldn't there be a higher level of accountability on the abortionists to provide follow-up mental care?  Does a psychiatrist simply prescribe a medication and send the person on their way?  No.  

So a correlation isn't enough for you to question the safety of the procedure on a mental health level?  And to demand the disclosure of "correlation" to women seeking a potential abortion?  How's about addressing the speakers on Sunday regarding the glaring lack of follow-up mental care for women who have had abortions?

See, to do any of these things would compromise the political and financial well-being of the advocates of abortion: It would be an admission that abortion comes with significant risks.  And that would jeopardize the entire abortion racket, starting with Planned Parenthood.  Just like labor unions and environmental organizations, the crazy liberals in this country refuse to believe that people in their camp would NEVER do anything based on achievement of power or the almighty dollar.  News flash for y'all: Liberals are the worst offenders, and the biggest hypocrites in society on just about every level.

firstdone

about 12 years ago

sneusse, the correlation between abortions and suicides stems from most accidental pregnancies happening to mentally ill women.

TimK

about 12 years ago

Yeah, those damned environmentalists have so much money and kill babies, too.

cando

about 12 years ago

Maybe they're killing themselves because people like you are calling them murderous monsters.

lojasmo

about 12 years ago

Never have had an abortion, nor have I caused a pregnance which required an abortion.  I never advocated for abortion either, though I understand that some might feel it necessary.

Oh...only a fucking moron doesn't understand the difference between a fetus and a baby.

Marin Christensen

about 12 years ago

It's called pro-choice for a reason, Snuess, and you know, not all women make the right choice for themselves. Some women can't handle an abortion, while others can. Regardless of that, it's not up to anybody but themselves to make that choice.
And I have to agree with Cando, people like you don't make it any easier on these women.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Most accidental pregnancies happen to mentally ill women.....and you still think it's OK to allow them an abortion and send them on their less-than-merry way with no follow-up care?

The best part of this whole thing is that no one is actually arguing the issue, only spouting off rhetoric like "a fetus isn't a baby" and "it's a woman's choice".

So again, I'll ask: A correlation ("mentally ill" or not) isn't enough for you to question the safety of the procedure on a mental health level? And to demand the disclosure of "correlation" to women seeking a potential abortion? Why don't you all want to address the glaring lack of follow-up mental care for women who have had abortions?

Just answer the questions with some thought, and I leave your closed, cozy little world of PDD Land.

TimK

about 12 years ago

Wait a minute! Since liberals are crazy, they can't reliably answer any of Snuesse's questions. Damn! I'm so mentally ill that I might accidentally get pregnant!

adam

about 12 years ago

I would kill you all if I could get away with it.

jim

about 12 years ago

Why am I not surprised Sneuss' Post opens with "y'all?"

Winger

about 12 years ago

Snuesse, don't bother.  They won't debate any point you offer without throwing in some namecalling (see SMDC post).  lojasmo, for instance, doesn't know his ass from her/his/its elbow......but she/he/it sure knows when life begins!

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Again, I fail to see anyone answering the questions.  Which isn't surprising, considering that liberal ideology is pretty much impossible to defend with facts.  No wonder the biting sarcasm and namecalling.....y'all have nothing else to offer.

jim

about 12 years ago

TimK: You? Pregnant? Just think of the fun you'd have taking the ultrasound machine apart!
Seneuss:"Most accidental pregnancies happen to mentally ill women" Then I recommend being a bit pickier with your partners. I know, I know, hard to find a sane one who is down with you having as a handle a word that means 'Spit out used chewing tobacco'

c-freak

about 12 years ago

"Most accidental pregnancies happen to mentally ill women"

Snuesse, you are an imbicile. and i put a lot of thought into that. i'm off to loasd hay into my wagon b4 the nuns get me with their ruler. i got a busy night of hauling knocked up teens through the cold dark woods.

jim

about 12 years ago

Sneuss, last time I checked, the cause of suicide is major depression. "Just like labor unions and environmental organizations, the crazy liberals in this country refuse to believe that people in their camp would NEVER do anything based on achievement of power or the almighty dollar. News flash for y'all: Liberals are the worst offenders, and the biggest hypocrites in society on just about every level.' 
   Really.
    I didn't know such ignorant raving lunatic rednecks existed in the wild anymore. Step right up, folks, get your picture taken with a reall gen -u - ine  conservative reactionary. I wish I could say it was the last of a dying breed, but I guess the cold up there preserves them foe generations. Sneuss, If I ever had to make A CHOICE, I'd probably be to chickenshit to have an abortion. But If you were my child, I'd buck up and have done with it, for the greater good of society.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Jim and C-Freak, those aren't my words, they are the words of "firstdone":

"sneusse, the correlation between abortions and suicides stems from most accidental pregnancies happening to mentally ill women."

firstdone | Jan 21, 2010 | Reply   

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

And again.....zero points for Team Abortion in debating the issue.  You got some namecalling in there, along with a couple of sophomoric digs on conservatives.  Come on, people.....what's wrong with answering the few harmless questions posed to you?  Is it that you can't?  Or does your liberal snobbishness make you believe that you are above this type of debate?  If you're all SO pro-woman on this issue, where is the support after the fact?  

And of course, Marin Christensen apparently doesn't have a problem with women making uninformed decisions and suffering the unknown consequences of that choice.....it is only important to her that the choice is available--regardless of the outcome.  Yeah, to hell with the weak-willed women I guess.  If they can't handle it, it's their own fault, right?

You're all a bunch of poseurs.  Get a backbone and answer the questions.

Marin Christensen

about 12 years ago

No, I DO believe that women should know the facts beforehand, just as any other medical decision. It's not something that should be taken lightly, but not something that should be taken away completely. 
There are far too many variables ranging from woman to woman that only one option could possibly suffice for all.

TimK

about 12 years ago

Snuesse has become the argument for retro-active abortions.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Marin: If that is the case, then why isn't anything being done to inform women of potential post-abortion issues?  If being pro-choice is all about being pro-woman, then where is the concern about the correlation between abortion and suicide?

TimK

about 12 years ago

Snuesse-
Your correlation between abortion and suicide is spurious. And where are you sourcing the claim that women aren't counseled about health risk (mental and physical). Give it the fuck up already. And as for the name-calling (as my brother would say) YOU STARTED IT! I think it's time to shut this thread down. It's like a scab- you know you shouldn't pick at it... Snuesse and Big Iron and their ilk must not be happy with the toys over at DCB so they've decided to invade our sandbox.

Marin Christensen

about 12 years ago

Well Snuesse, I'll be honest, more should be done regarding that, there's really no argument there. But as I said in my first post, more concern is being debated over the fetus than the people living here and now, including the pregnant women themselves.

bystander

about 12 years ago

I am curious about Snuesse's stance on capital punishment.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Hey TimK--it's not MY correlation, it's one based on government studied done in Finland and California.  Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, jackbag.

I guaran-fucking-tee you that there is not a single abortion provider that informs it's patients about the correlation between abortions and depression/suicide.  Or adoption possibilities, for that matter.

On the topic of having me "retroactively aborted":  I love seeing liberal reactionaries get all angry and menacing when someone questions their ideology.  You want me dead, TimK?  Wonderful, you wish death upon those who disagree with you!  That makes you a spineless hypocrite with very little self-worth.  

I'll tell you what, TimmyK....you want me dead?  Come on over and try do it yourself instead of puffing out your chest and blowing smoke.

Snuesse

about 12 years ago

Capital punishment?  Firmly against it.

throwing up in my mouth-person

about 12 years ago

I urge the moderators to abort this post ASAP. Or delete the comments and leave the post up (and close comments). It's poison and ugly. Free-speech be damned!

lojasmo

about 12 years ago

I conceded that life begins at conception.

Learn to read, tool.

Also, since you are so concerned with the sanctity of life, then what is your (and Sneuse's) position on war and capitol punnishment.

I am personally opposed to the taking of all human life.  Care to put your money where your mouth is?

@ sneuse:  "why isn't anything being done to inform women of potential post-abortion issues?"

I find your implication to be both troubling and spurious.  From the perspective of a medical professional, I have a hard time believing your assertion, previous BS aside.

oldknifey

about 12 years ago

You're all wrong. Every single one of you. Morons. Except c-freak. She's right.

TimK

about 12 years ago

Hahahahahahahahhahahahaha! Again, your "info" is spurious at best. Here's a little tip for you. There's this thing called the internet. You can look stuff up on it. And then you can post weblinks in your post to back up your claims about government studies. I am not angry and have not puffed up my chest or been menacing. I've been sarcastic! Oh yeah, that's right- you have no sense of humor (or reality for that matter). Please- crawl back in to your hole. And don't forget your guns.

Comments Closed

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!
Read previous post:
Old Francis is sticking to his guns

"I didn't like it then -- he's a Green Bay Packer -- and I don't like it now." --Fran Tarkenton...

Close