Musical Roundtable @ NorShor
By baci on Jul 26, 2010 in Advice, Music
This is the second round of discussions about how the “music scene” in all it’s diverse splendor, can support the re-birth of the NorShor. If you couldn’t make the last one, please please come to this one. All are welcome if you can be strategic thinking, not yell and be a force for productive forward movement. We’re primarily concerned with giving the Duluth Playhouse some feedback and guidance, from the musician’s perspective, on how to have the mezzanine become a sustainable and profitable venue for all artists and genres as they move forward with the project as a whole. Larger events, main room, upstairs theater will be covered at other times and possibly with other groups. We really want to stay focused on the Mezz. at this time.
Tuesday, 07/27 8:30pm – NorShor Theatre
BTW — Go ahead and make POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE comments here, we’ll try to represent them at any meetings. This is NOT a place to slag the city for buying the Norshor, take that elsewhere.
In fairness to those of you who would like to slag the city for buying the NorShor, you can comment under any of the posts linked below, if you haven’t already.
NorShor sale to DEDA official
Council says yes to purchase of NorShor
More NorShor Details
NorShor and Temple Opera Block
NorShor ?!?!?
Is anybody invited?
What if I want to slag the NorShor for allowing itself to be bought by the govinment?
One suggestion: Beck
Paul, for someone with nothing to say you sure complain a lot. Hmm. Anywho, the mezz. I think it should be local kids, playing music, every night, small bar. Big room for big gigs.
I think someone just complained about me complaining, even though I wasn’t complaining. Not that I’m complaining about it.
Back in the days when Eric still owned the NS, I sent him a design for a remake of the lobby including a skylight and a ramp to make the Mezzanine accessible. I had been to too many benefits up there where Russ Stover was carried up the stairs and then had to bounce down them on his butt at the end of the night.
Can’t make the meeting but a musicians perspective is as follows: Hire musicians and pay them an honest base rate and then give them a cut of door and bar profits somewhere between %10 and 15%. As in $75.00 or $100.00 base pay or %15 of profits while you play, which ever is MORE. Obviously the physical setting must be made to facilitate a small stage and must meet access requirements for citizens with disabilities. People would do well to realize what it takes to be a musician and make a small profit. I always say you are not really paying me for the gig, you are paying me for the thousands of hours of practice and the thousands of dollars of equipment it takes to even be a solo act whats more a band. Someone who was trying to hire me the other day seemed to think that if I practice that implies I’m not good and should be worth less money than some one who doesn’t practice. I won’t be taking that gig. If I’m no good instead of hiring me for nothing, go out and find any one of our good musicians in this town and pay them what it is worth. If everyone expects musicians to work for pizza and beer then the bar is lowered so far that an ant would trip on it.
I have been working in and around the live music scene since 1996 and VERY few venues give a percentage of the bar/food sales to anyone but themselves.
The typical deal is musicians get a guaranteed base and if the door sales go over that they are entitled to the bonus.
Often times venues will also take a cut back from the band for any merch sold at the show.
Everyone has overhead so a middle ground needs to be established.
Bottom line is if you are “good” people will come and spend money and the talent will get paid. If no one comes should the venue then be responsible to pay the talent anyways?
If the latter is the case, sign me up. I’m terrible but would like to get paid.
Question, If a bar doesn’t sell its beer because no one comes to their bar do they still have to pay the beer distributor for their unsold beer? The answer is yes they do. It is the cost of doing business. If no one comes do you still have to pay your staff? I hope so. I’ve been in more than one bar where a talented musician or band was playing to an empty room I hope they would still get paid for their time and effort. Fact is sometimes it has nothing to do with the quality (or lack thereof) of a band. Sometimes it is just a slow night or part of the larger economic slow down. Other times the house can be packed and have nothing to do with the quality of the band either, it just happens to be a busy night.
@W.T.F.
I agree about the overhead of supplies in a bar, but alcohol and staff are not optional, live entertainment is.
All I am saying is that demanding a large guarantee for a performance could make a venue concerned about booking it in the first place. An act with a high guarantee usually has the “numbers” to make the night profitable for both talent and venue. Start ups and lesser known bands do not have the same draw and therefore may not profitable.
A business model where a venue puts quality entertainment and “an honest base rate” before their own bottom line is not going to last very long.
Again you are correct that the quality of the band is not a 100% predicting factor for the turn out of the patrons, but if the venue keeps losing money it will stop booking live events all together. I’m sure PDDers could come up with an exhaustive list of local venues that have cut back or stopped live music altogether due to this very issue.
The only way to meet in the middle is for the talent to keep the ticket money, and the venue to keep the food/ booze revenue. As a promoter or band member, taking into account the night of the week and other competing draws the night of your show are very important. If you know you are being paid by the turn out you will have a vested interest in maximizing your numbers. Having a guarantee takes some of that drive away from the performers and puts it on the venue to minimize its losses.
I really hope the NorShor does get this thing worked out so that they can remain open and talent can get paid, this town has some great live acts and another place to enjoy them is a win for everyone.
So for all for you reading this do not show up at a local show and complain about the $5 cover and ask for a discount. You are the reason talent is not getting paid “an honest base rate”.
If you are in a band and you complain about the cover for someone else’s show you are the stupidest person alive.
I complain about the cover all the time.
Thanks a bunch Bman, you pretty much put it all into perspective.
B-man, I appreciate your posts but have a few problems with the premise. The first being that almost all of the places that have live music on a regular basis do not have a cover charge so that pool of money does not exist in the first place. Luce tends to have a cover and occasionally a few other places when they have multiple bands. If there is no cover were else can the money come from except from food and drink sales? Part of it depends on what you think a musician/bands job actually is. Is it to bring in people who wouldn’t be there otherwise or is it to entertain the people who come there regularly? Is it the bars job to get people there and the musicians job to get them to stay longer and drink more or is it a little of both?
Trust me, having a guarantee has never caused me to play less of a show than not having a guarantee. Most people I know show up at work knowing what they are going to get paid. This doesn’t seem to be a disincentive to doing the job. Why is it the musician’s job to take all of the risk? Most people I know don’t spend hours on end practicing their job when they go home at the end of the day. Most bartenders don’t go home and practice mixing drinks for two hours a night so they can keep their bartending gig. Since 1980 (30 years) the cover charge for music has not gone up at all or it has disappeared altogether. The amount bands get paid on average has not gone up at all either. The price of everything else in the world has gone up whether it is guitar strings or gasoline.
@ B.T.W. thank you for this civilized discussion and not reverting to name calling and other crazy types of verbal assault (like over on the political posts)
Your first statement is puzzling to me. “almost all of the places that have live music on a regular basis do not have a cover charge” can you give me some examples? I can think of a few “country” bars that do indeed hire live music to entertain a crowd of regulars that would most likely be at that establishment already, and yes the money to pay them comes from the alcohol and food sales, although I do not believe it is 10 or 15% of the intake for the night.
On the converse the downtown bars with live music for the most part charge a cover, or know that the draw of the performance will cover the guarantee through increased sales (i.e. Charlie Parr @ Brewhouse) So I agree that there are two functions of live music at a bar. Getting people in or keeping those that would already be there to stay for one more beer.
It seems to me that any particular nights at Luce, Quinlans, Red Lion (RIP), Norshore, Clyde Iron, Etc. there are more people present for a show than would be there on a non event night.
So I guess I am implying that the motivation of most downtown bars is to increase market share of the available drinkers for that night.
That being said my statement “Having a guarantee takes some of that drive away” is not directed at the talent or performance portion of the show, just the marketing and buzz factor for the show. No buzz =no crowd = no money for the venue or the talent. That is a lose, lose situation we are all trying to avoid.
This post is specifically for the new Norshore and as I see it they will need to “bring people in” with the events they have, not just entertain a regular crowd that has been absent for a few years now. So maybe in the future the focus can shift but for now I do not see them adopting a business plan that pays out more than it generates, but then again it is the city……..
I was staying out if this but decided to throw a toe in.
I think that the “cover” is to pay the bands and the promoter (if the NorShor is the “promoter” then they could legitimately keep some of tix sales on say little theater or main room shows. But for the Mezz those $ should go to the bands or whomever puts the show together, prints up flyers, pounds the pavement getting customers and etc. Among other things this is a great incentive to bands to get artists motivated to do well, deveolop a following and really promote the show themselves. The bar/food receipts go to the venue. Too many other costs associated with running the NorShor more things than you could even imagine. PLUS, if the venue had to always book “safe” shows that were going to generate enough $ to have huge margins the place would be a … country bar (as was previously mentioned) or possibly a UMD/CSS student fratboy-esque “cover band.” Nothing too wrong with that kind of music as a small part of the overall mix, but overall that’s not the NorShor I want to see, nor does anyone else. Diverse musical options representing a diverse community. This requires bands (and probably the venue) to have lower profits, but higher creative flexibility.
Off the top of my head: Carmody has music more nights a week than not and no cover; Brewhouse has music most every night and no cover and Charlie Parr isn’t playing all of those nights; Thirsty Pagan does not usually have a cover most nights of the week. The Lakeview Castle (RIP)rarely had a cover and did not go under from paying musicians. I am not aware of any bars that have gone under because they paid musicians a fair price. Several went under because the staff had their hand in the till. Others went under from bad business plans, bad management or bad luck. If any bar owners failed based on paying musicians too much give me their names so I can buy them a beer and a shot next time I see them. It needs to be a symbiotic relation were business and musician are working hand in hand and not trying to see who can screw the other the most.
I don’t think any businesses have gone under because of paying musicians. Many bars stop live entertainment and therefore paying musicians because of losing money.
As far as the bars you mentioned without cover what is the amount they are paying the talent? I cannot believe that Carmodys, Brewhouse, Pagan are paying more than $100/night?
Now maybe we have a difference in opinion of what an “an honest base rate” is, but that does not seem to be a whole lot.
The other issue I have seen is bands will complain that “the other band last week got paid more, you guys are unfair” this is difficult to deal with since some bands are “worth” more to the business in regards to profits. This is where the motivation comes back into play that wildgoose described.
If a business pays a new band with a turnout of 23 people the same amount as a band with a sold out show that is not right is it?
Who makes the scale? 10-20 customers makes $X for the band, 21-50 makes $Y……
This is where the “tickets sold = your pay” model is handy
More profits for me (business) = more profits for you (talent)
B-man, I noticed in your earlier response you addressed me as @B.T.W. instead of WTF. Being I don’t tweet or text on a cell I’m not sure if thats a typo or is that an abbreviation I should be aware of. If I’ve just been insulted or poked fun at I want in on the joke. I got no problem laughing at myself. Most of my jokes are at my expense. Please educate me.
@ W.T.F.total brain fart on my part.
I didn’t noticed I screwed up your handle, and I apoligize.
No problem B-man. WTF
From my understanding:
Sir Ben’s pays around $70 + a meal
Brewhouse pays around $70 + a meal
Carmody pays 10% of the till during performance
Rex generally pays door
RT’s pays door (-sound?)
Lucé generally pays door -sound
Twins pays door or flat rate
Thirsty Pagan?
Main Club would pay flat rate
Mr. D’s?
The Reef would pay flat rate?
Beaner’s generally pays door
The old NorShor (Boo) used to pay 10% of the till
The Tap Room used to pay flat rate or %
The Red Lion would pay what the fuck ever Kelly Jo or Jona wanted
The Encounter, I would imagine, pays door -sound
The Kozy Bar pays flat rate
The Pioneer?
Hell Burgers?
Lake Avenue probably pays flat rate
Amazing Grace?
Chester Creek?
Powerhouse?
Runway?
Gopher?
The Play Ground pays door -rental?
Teatro pays door -rental -sound?
* Keep in mind that at some places “pays door” = you have to staff the door yourself.
In these examples, bands with a small draw would not make much either way, door or till %, the guarantee would be the best way to go for them.
So we are back to the question, is 70 bucks enough of an honest base?
Some would say that for a two hour gig $70 is pretty good money, W.T.F. you mentioned your practice time and overhead skewing the numbers.
If you factor $70/ week in income and divide by the money and time you put in to your performance what would be your hourly rate? What would you need to make per week to be satisfied with the base?
I’m not trying to put you on the spot here, I just truly do not know how many hours/ dollars you are talking about investing in a year.
We experimented with paying gift certificate + $25 per band member and found we could not support that. If our wine bar could support regular music that would be the sweetest song I have ever heard. But I have experiences that make me unsure of how to go about this kind of project.
During homegrown we had a poetry guy who started his set by yelling “F@#K” for 15 minutes and the (large) crowd ate it up. That in itself was enough to make me think “go figure.” But we have also had a folkie couple who said they could bring 300 Facebook friends and ended up bringing in zero and some other very talented players who sometimes bring in maybe 10 people and sometimes zero.
The analogy of other workers knowing what they are going to make is not quite accurate. Because a musician is kind of an independent contractor — not really contributing in a definable way to the bottom line. The venue owner is in the same position. Barb and I feel like we really contribute a lot to our place — but our return is not guaranteed at all. Meanwhile, we have to make payroll and keep the place open.
We have some great entertainment this weekend which I will tell you about on a different post. I hope that the Playhouse will be able to pull this miracle off. It is a little scary to me that they are a committee.
I really want to thank everyone for contributing to this conversation. We had an excellent meeting last Tuesday (Christine, Tessa, Adam, Tim K., Alan S., Nate (Armory), Ben, Darin B., did miss someone?) and came to some interim resolutions about how the music community can be a key contributor to the hopefully sustainable resurrection of the NorShor, starting with the mezzanine.
We’re putting together some notes and “proposals” about this and will let everyone know about it as soon as we get that stuff into draft form. Upshot, bands get the cover charge. The mezz will not be a bar but will be open when events are booked there. Some form of community oversight will ensure that there isn’t genre/artist hegemony. More to come soon!
The other thing to keep in mind is that the NorShor (under the Playhouse) uses a different “business” model than your typical for-profit endeavor. It will have occasional access to other funding streams that your typical bar does not. Baci makes another critical point that the venue is not a bar. It won’t have bar hours or be open as “just the bar” if there isn’t an event going on. Your typical bar or coffee house exists to make a profit — not just break even. The owners get paid after the staff, vendors, etc., get paid. And they need to be paid well enough themselves to want to continue being in business. The NorShor will need to generate income, but the long-term goal is to pay for itself, not a group of owners. The Playhouse can’t do it alone and there will, I’m sure, be a lot of give and take over the short term. If you like to see music (or live theater or live dance), make sure you patronize the NorShor when you can. If you make music, theater, etc., let’s see if we can make the NorShor work for everybody.
Hey!
If you’re a fan of Charlie Parr, you definitely need to see this new video MPLS.TV shot with him for City of Music! It’s amazing!
Watch @ " rel="nofollow"> OR http://www.mpls.tv
☮—Jamie